Curse

bhavv · Jan 18, 2012, 07:59 AM // 07:59

One of the last things that people enjoy reading in the chat channels after account and gold sellers / buyers, is a flood ofquestions asking for help. Most people want to actually have a discussion or chat about whateverthey want while playing without having to answer every question from new players.

TBH I never understood why people need to ask so many questions about how to play, if they simply spent more time playing and less time asking they would likely figure it out themselves like most people did. For people who are still too lazy, there is an official, and several unofficial wikis for the game that they can use. I always thought that the normal thing to do if you dont understand something in a game is to google the problem and find the answer on a wiki for that game, but I suppose that bombarding the general chat channels is an easier and lazier way of doing it.

A lot of other MMOs actually have a dedicated /help or /advice channel where people can ask for help without disrupting the general chat, and get advice from players and even GMs who like to provide help.

Tullzinski · Jan 18, 2012, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Damn I almost forgot about this from the GW2 wiki here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Wiki:FAQ

Why does this site exist when the game isn't out yet?
ArenaNet opened the Guild Wars 2 Wiki in December 2007 so that the community would have a place to document the bits of information to be released through interviews, articles, etc as they became available. To quote Emily Diehl: "We'd like to make sure that you guys have a good place to put that stuff when you get it, without having to move it later."

and

Will the wiki be accessible from in-game?
Yes, though the integration is likely to differ from Guild Wars 1. A blog post has stated that there will be "a much tighter system for accessing and consuming wiki content. This will greatly reduce the need to continuously jump out of the game to access web sites for information." Specifics haven't been revealed

So is GW2 is already ruined before it came out using Mr. Flannum's quote? He cannot blame this one on the MMO Community. ArenaNet opened the Wiki in 2007 and they will integrate it into the game. They enable us to document every inch of the game and then bust our chops for doing it.

I feel like a drug addict whose mom is telling me to stop taking drugs, but handing me money to buy drugs at the same time.

Gill Halendt · Jan 18, 2012, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Impressive how the most frequent answer seems to be spoilers related to the Prophecies plot.

About Rurik... on my first playthrough, I too was told Rurik was going to die and to resurrect as a undead, summoned by the Vizier Khilbron who is actually the Undead Lich and the final boss of the game.

Nothing special, you say...

Well... It happened while I was looking for the special birthday present for Althea, in Pre-Searing Ascalon. I was also informed about her scripted demise soon after the Searing - the Searing itself being spoilered for me.

Nice to have a well informed guildies when you're a noob, isn't it?

zwei2stein · Jan 18, 2012, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

I feel like a drug addict whose mom is telling me to stop taking drugs, but handing me money to buy drugs at the same time.

Its more of stop taking drugs, here are some money to buy sandwich.

Wiki for game mechanics and related items (items, skills, etc...) is necessary to have.

That same wiki might and might not be used to get some insight about storyline, but storyline in GW2 is pretty much spoiled already (get five heroes, fice nations and thee factions together to kill big bad dragon).

Unless we learn that big bad dragon is Lich-Vizier in rather impressive costume, there are not any suprises.

Voodoo Rage · Jan 18, 2012, 03:28 PM // 15:28

When I first started I was playing just fine, I got to level 9 or 10 and was progressing through the Prophecies campaign normally. A friend of mine then gave me a bunch of money, ran me to the other campaigns, got me max armor, leveled me up to 20, and got me heroes. Because I missed out on that whole learning curve, I really never learned to play the game properly. As I have posted several times, my build of choice end up being a TOUCH RANGER which I played consistently for well over a year. I didn't really learn how to truly play the game until I decided to roll a new character and start fresh. In retrospect, I think my personal experience was ruined in that respect.

**cosyfiep** · Jan 18, 2012, 03:29 PM // 15:29

there were no wikis when we started playing--though we did have the prima guides (mine is still here somewheres next to my computer...under..no..next to...no...its here somewhere)....even though they were not perfect they did help with finding collectors and bosses et al....not nearly as comprehensive as the wiki is (though I do like having the books in my hand while also playing the game on the computer---much easier than minimizing all the time).
ah the good ole days....so if the wikis ruined it..what about the old prima guides?

Relyk · Jan 18, 2012, 03:29 PM // 15:29

People are so lucky to have wikis. Compared to looking on fansites, forums, or gamefaqs, wikis make looking up information accessible and easy to find. I can usually find information on a wiki in a matter of seconds instead of scrounging around with google searches going through forums. i consider it an amazing accomplishment when one site can provide all the hints, advice, walkthroughs, and information a person would ever need for a game.

That's also to say guildwarswiki sets the gold standard for what a wiki should be. Blame it on the awesome community for ruining everyone's gaming experience for making the wiki too comprehensive and thorough.

Gill Halendt · Jan 18, 2012, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Unless we learn that big bad dragon is Lich-Vizier in rather impressive costume, there are not any suprises.

You mean, unless we learn that the dragon is actually the master of a group of yelling sages and we're killed by an arrow in the knee to prevent us from revealing his secret...?

Skyy High · Jan 18, 2012, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Also, what experience can I ruin to get a reward from?

Quite obviously, a new player's first experience with, well, anything. Think about how veterans tend to play new characters (particularly a few years ago, when NM was the only mode available and most people still at least attempted to group before resigning to henchies and/or heroes). You know exactly where to go, what to do, and how to beat the mission the fastest. You know what skills to bring, what skills will be useless, and what roles need to be filled. You got to learn all that for yourself, playing with friends or PUGs or even just with henchies, until you could beat the mission yourself. On your 2nd, 3rd, or 10th playthrough, however, you just want to beat the damn mission. You don't want to wait for Joe Newbie to learn for himself, you just tell him what to do and rage if he wants to use his flarespammer/beastmaster R/E build, or if he wants to stop and look at the pretty snowy mountains, or if he pulls a group that you don't need to kill because he still thinks the occasional white drop is worth the time.

In short: you get the reward of finishing the mission faster and easier if you force the newbie to play the way you, the veteran, want him to play. Everyone here has done it, some more forcefully than others. I'm not making a value judgement on whether you should or should not do it (because I'd be a hypocrite if I say that you shouldn't), I'm just pointing out that that conflict is there, every time you PUG with someone of a different experience / skill level than you.

Amy Awien · Jan 18, 2012, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

... ArenaNet opened the Wiki in 2007 and they will integrate it into the game.

Before wiki.guildwars.com was opened there was already - and still is - www.guildwiki.org, which essentially features the same content as anet's wiki. I don't know when it was created but I am pretty sure is was around and became widely used around the time that Factions was released.

Martin Alvito · Jan 18, 2012, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

That may be true if they fail to balance the skills per weapon set or if the game itself enforces build discrimination(ex. destroyers are strong vs fire damage and weak vs. cold). The truth is we don't really know how GW2 will turn out in terms of build discrimination.

From what I can see, the devs' plan to resolve build discrimination is to have lots of small, independent groups converge to put down the big, bad monster. That way, what you bring to the table has relatively little impact on overall completion speed.

This sounds like a good idea, until you realize that all this does is spur the better players to organize and time things to get dropped into the same instance, avoiding the lowly masses. However, you can bet that the power players will have some choice things to say to the masses when those efforts at coordination fail.

A strictly superior design would recognize the problem for what it is and react to it. The efficient solution is to create endgame 'containment areas' designed to attract power players by conferring just enough additional rewards to keep them happy, but with a sufficiently small boost that the social players remain happy to suffer the relative decrease in drops as the price of remaining in regions with like-minded players.

The devs also seem to believe that randomizing things will cause players to somehow permit greater build diversity, but the reality is that randomization will only shift the equilibrium in favor of flexibility over raw power. A team build which yields an optimal expected completion time given the randomization will still exist; the only change will be that the build's exact composition will differ.

X Dr Pepper X · Jan 18, 2012, 07:41 PM // 19:41

This guy's article sucks.

People dont ruin MMOs by mapping out and recording data for plots, quests, lore, etc on wikis or discussing it.

Its optional to the player to view wikis or forums and entirely possible to avoid spoilers or easy mode walkthroughs by not using those sites for the express purpose of doing so.

What destroys MMOs are the tendencies of the fanbase along with the decisions developers put into effect in MMOs.

We all remember how they nerfed Ursan Blessing horribly after more than a year later because ANet refused to put their foot down on the brat pack PvE farm/grind mentality.

Many more examples across many games.

AngelWJedi · Jan 18, 2012, 07:48 PM // 19:48

i never gave out spoilers and ruined peoples game play. but i didnt think wiki did either. i know a lot of people who wont use it on the account they are just lazy..so even if its out there doesnt mean everyone uses it. i know people who told me the ending of movies/stories and other things but it never ruined it for me xD but then again by the time i reached the ending i had forgoten what i was told lols

Skyy High · Jan 18, 2012, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

From what I can see, the devs' plan to resolve build discrimination is to have lots of small, independent groups converge to put down the big, bad monster. That way, what you bring to the table has relatively little impact on overall completion speed.

Huh? No, that's not their plan at all. Their plan is to cut out useless skills and all skills that have the potential to be useless if used poorly (like, say, GW1 mesmer interrupts) and to replace them with a short list of powerful skills, fixed builds for each weapon so that everyone has a solid role that fits their equipment at the very least, and effects that are excellent if used well and still ok if used poorly (stuns replacing interrupts).

This lets the good players still be good, but compresses the bottom of the curve so that bad players aren't miles below "average" or "acceptable", like they could be in GW1.

enter_the_zone · Jan 18, 2012, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Actually, reading that in the entire context, to me he seems to be saying that the wiki and having everything mapped out can't ruin the experience, at least in GW2. I suspect that largely has to do with the individual personal storylines they keep banging on about.

Personally, I can't play games without a decent wiki because half the time the outcome of an action isn't obvious from the options, and the rewards aren't known beforehand either. Sure, that adds some replayability, but let's be real here, no one wants to play 654 hours of a game to take a single different decision next time. Lay it out for me and let me choose.... or I'll go play something else and another game will just be added to the long, long litany of games I haven't finished because I couldn't help but go "Bored now.."

To be fair though, I predate wikis.... I've got a printed out FF7 guide somewhere that is so long it requires multiple ringbinders.

Guild Wars has one of the best wikis for any game I have ever seen, and hopefully it will stay that good for GW2.

Yes, choosing to use the wiki can "ruin" your experience, especially if you use it for everything as opposed to just when you're stuck, but that's a free choice.

Crom The Pale · Jan 18, 2012, 09:39 PM // 21:39

I'm on the fence regarding this. I can recall back when I started playing GW franticaly searching for a mythical city called "Yak's Bend" in order to purchase this unknown item called a Expert Salvage that would let me gain runes from blue armor as well as the much needed Fur for the Armor Crafter in Ascalon City.

Happily I found it on my own just by following the story and doing some exploring, but I must wonder what if there had been a wiki to show me the way? Would it have taken away my enjoyment of the game?

I don't think so. Though I will say that having people in a party who have complete a mission once or twice before can be hard on new players just because they wish to rush through it while the new player might wish to explore a bit and take his time.

Araiia · Jan 18, 2012, 09:50 PM // 21:50

The question is too subjective for me to answer. It's like asking if running a build taken from gwpvx or regarded as meta (panic, UA, SF etc) is 'ruining the game.' People have pretty different ideas of how the game 'should' be played and expect different things out of their game experience.

I generally try to avoid responding with "check the wiki" when people ask me for advice, but I don't hesitate to give tips that I know from reading the wiki. Some people just don't like reading wikis, so I won't force it on them - but knowledge is knowledge.

The one thing I do however, is recommend a ferry/run to LA when I notice someone struggling through the starting zones of Nightfall and Prophecies. Although running and skipping part of the storyline is obviously immersion breaking, it's perfectly possible to go back once you have an elite and a full skill build and play through all the 'skipped' content. Before you do anything else in that campaign, in fact.

Martin Alvito · Jan 18, 2012, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Huh? No, that's not their plan at all. Their plan is to cut out useless skills and all skills that have the potential to be useless if used poorly (like, say, GW1 mesmer interrupts) and to replace them with a short list of powerful skills, fixed builds for each weapon so that everyone has a solid role that fits their equipment at the very least, and effects that are excellent if used well and still ok if used poorly (stuns replacing interrupts).

Then why does every preview article show (and describe) large quantities of PCs that aren't in the same party engaged in combat with instanced boss monsters?

As for balance, I'll believe precisely equivalent power across classes when I see it. If the devs release a game where team parts are totally interchangeable, it'll be a first in gaming history. The reality is that given classes X, Y and Z, some combination will outperform other combinations.

Swingline · Jan 19, 2012, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

From what I can see, the devs' plan to resolve build discrimination is to have lots of small, independent groups converge to put down the big, bad monster. That way, what you bring to the table has relatively little impact on overall completion speed.

This sounds like a good idea, until you realize that all this does is spur the better players to organize and time things to get dropped into the same instance, avoiding the lowly masses. However, you can bet that the power players will have some choice things to say to the masses when those efforts at coordination fail.

A strictly superior design would recognize the problem for what it is and react to it. The efficient solution is to create endgame 'containment areas' designed to attract power players by conferring just enough additional rewards to keep them happy, but with a sufficiently small boost that the social players remain happy to suffer the relative decrease in drops as the price of remaining in regions with like-minded players.

The devs also seem to believe that randomizing things will cause players to somehow permit greater build diversity, but the reality is that randomization will only shift the equilibrium in favor of flexibility over raw power. A team build which yields an optimal expected completion time given the randomization will still exist; the only change will be that the build's exact composition will differ.

We can discuss it till our eyes bleed but the best thing to do is wait till we see the game completely finished. There may be small mechanics that we have not seen which might turn our ideas of GW2 upside down. I hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Kunder · Jan 19, 2012, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I've never given away story stuff to people. Never seen the reason to. I give skill and build help, mostly because if I don't then the average noob gets it from idiots who run warriors with blood magic.

I had exactly zero (PvE) interaction with other players before I finished prophecies on my first 2 characters (warrior and mesmer), henching it all the way. Nothing prevents new players from doing that now, the sad fact is that a very high proportion of them are MMOtards intent on ruining the game for themselves and racing as fast as possible so that they can grind UW/FoW/DoA for tehuberlewtz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

As for balance, I'll believe precisely equivalent power across classes when I see it. If the devs release a game where team parts are totally interchangeable, it'll be a first in gaming history. The reality is that given classes X, Y and Z, some combination will outperform other combinations.

I LOVE such statements as "devs plan to balance the game". As if there are devs whose objective is "lets make x class shitty because lol". One might as well say "devs plan to end world hunger with this game", it means about the same as far as what the final result is going to be.